Signs of the fracture emerged when Grimm was asked at one point whether he’d “thought about asking for a pardon from President Trump.
“You were the one who said you told the president that a Marine was wrongfully convicted and needed his help,” Grimm said.
Incumbent Rep. Dan Donovan and former Rep. Michael Grimm repeatedly attacked, belittled and interrupted each other over the course of an hour-long debate Monday that largely mirrored what has been a particularly nasty race so far to represent New York’s 11th Congressional District.
Monday’s exchange was the first of two head-to-head debates between the two men before they face off in the June 26th primary as Donovan tries to defend the seat he’s held since 2015 against Grimm – a fast-talking former FBI agent elected to the seat covering Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn in 2010.
Grimm amassed a centrist record over two terms in office before resigning in 2015 after pleading guilty to tax fraud. He’s trying for a comeback as a Trump-style populist, and the race has become a contest for each man to demonstrate his fealty to the president.
On Monday the pair fought over immigration, NFL players, Grimm’s conviction, and an unverified allegation made to a congressional ethics office that Donovan inappropriately intervened to help the son of his girlfriend after he was arrested with heroin – a charge Donovan strenuously denies.
“This has been a particularly contentious primary, with both of you throwing barbs at each other, with both of you essentially calling each other a liar,” WABC-AM Radio moderator Rita Cosby said, as she opened the debate.
She was not wrong. The next five minutes were at times an unintelligible mash of Donovan and Grimm yelling, interrupting and quipping. Donovan accused Grimm of “deceitfulness.” Grimm accused Donovan of lies. The two never shook hands.
“I’ve already predicted your future," Grimm said at one point. "In fact, I’m going to define it when you get beat, June 26th."
Donovan has made Grimm’s tax fraud conviction a centerpiece of his attacks. Grimm pleaded guilty to tax fraud charges related to his employment of undocumented workers when he operated an Upper East Side health food restaurant. But he has repeatedly called the prosecution politically motivated. On Monday, he referred to the case as “an Obama Justice Department witch hunt.”
“I think everyone knows I had three delivery boys and a dishwasher off the books. I’ve never hid from that. It was a civil offense,” Grimm said. “I didn’t deserve a criminal prosecution.”
Grimm has tried to draw parallels between his own criminal prosecution and the ongoing investigation into President Donald Trump. Trump and his supporters have taken aim at federal law enforcement officials who previously enjoyed broad support from moderate Republicans like Donovan.
On Monday, Cosby and Grimm pushed Donovan to defend his prior statements supporting former top law enforcement officials and the special counsel investigating President Trump over allegations of collusion with Russia to meddle in the 2016 presidential election.
Donovan supported President Barack Obama’s appointment of Loretta Lynch, the former Eastern District U.S. Attorney who prosecuted Grimm’s case as attorney general and was pressed to defend her meeting with President Bill Clinton on an airport tarmac during federal investigations into Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server.
“She was [a friend]” Donovan said. “And I’m very disappointed in what she did when she was attorney general.”
But he said it was “not at all” possible that her office’s investigation into Grimm had been politically motivated.
Donovan had a measured response when the president fired former FBI director James Comey in May of 2017, saying it was within the president’s purview but could have been related to the Russia investigation.
“I understand that the timing of the president’s decision raises natural questions about impartiality, and those questions must be answered,” he said at the time. On Monday, Donovan said that he was “disappointed in James Comey.”
And Donovan praised Robert Mueller’s "impeccable reputation" when he was appointed to head up the independent investigation into possible Russian meddling, but said Monday that Mueller’s investigation has found no wrongdoing by Trump and "has gone on too long.”
Donovan wasn’t a vocal supporter of Trump when he first ran, calling him an “imperfect choice,” but since then, he’s voted in line with the president’s position 84.5 percent of the time.
He was critical of previous Trump administration efforts to strip federal funding from sanctuary cities like New York because they would cut federal aid to police departments. He recently proposed his own legislation that would cut federal aid to sanctuary cities while carving out the New York Police Department. He also recently floated legislation to require photographs of the president and vice president be hung in post offices.
He was one of a dozen congressional Republicans who voted against the president’s tax bill earlier this year, but that doesn’t seem to have bothered the president, who endorsed him late last month.
Donovan suggested Trump might do more for his reelection effort.
“He’s not finished campaigning for me, believe it or not.”
But Grimm is still popular in the district, and a recent NY1-Siena poll showed him leading Donovan by 10 points. The tight race has drawn outside spending on Donovan’s behalf – the National Republican Congressional Committee held a fundraiser for him this spring, and an outside PAC has dropped tens of thousands of dollars on pro-Donovan ads and mailers.
“Nothing but the president’s endorsement – that’s all I have,” Donovan said at one point during the debate. “He has looked at both of our records. He has said that I am the one that’s good on border security and crime, good on veterans, good on tax cuts.”
Immigration has become a particularly fiery flashpoint in the primary – as Donovan defends himself from Grimm’s charges that he’s “soft” on border security.
Last week, Donovan came out strongly in favor of federal immigration agents who arrested an undocumented pizza delivery man as he delivered food to a South Brooklyn military base. The arrest inspired widespread backlash across the city.
“What I found ridiculous about the whole case is that people were blaming ICE agents and our military personnel for enforcing the law,” Donovan said. “We’re the No. 1 threatened in the entire globe in New York. Our military bases are extra sensitive locations. They have to take extra precautions to know who’s going on those bases. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.”
Despite his conviction for tax fraud related to the hiring of undocumented workers, Grimm argued he is in a position to criticize immigration policy because he’s “lived through it.”
He maintained it’s impossible for restaurant owners to avoid hiring undocumented workers, because the pay is so low.
“Here’s the reality any small business owner will tell you: When you have the lowest skilled jobs and you’re paying minimum wage, no one else shows up," Grimm said. "Go to any small restaurant throughout this city and you’re gonna have undocumented workers in the kitchen. Why? Because, unfortunately, Americans don’t show up for those jobs anymore.”
At times the debate took on a particularly personal tone – both men were once proteges of Staten Island power broker Guy Molinari, a former congressman who is now homebound, and who is backing Grimm’s campaign. Sources have said Molinari’s decision to back Grimm against Donovan was particularly painful to him.
Signs of the fracture emerged when Grimm was asked at one point whether he’d “thought about asking for a pardon from President Trump.”
He alleged Donovan was planning to ask for one on his behalf, before he decided to enter the primary race.
“You were the one who said you told the president that a Marine was wrongfully convicted and needed his help,” Grimm said.
“That is not true. Here’s what I told the president -,” Donovan began.
“You didn’t say that right to my face?” Grimm shouted.
“Guy Molinari used to be a friend -,” Donovan said.
“You didn’t say that right to my face?” Grimm said.
“No! I didn’t say that,” Donovan said.
“You’re lying,” Grimm shot back.
The barbs continued for most of the hour.
The two men found a few areas of agreement.
Both were critical of NFL players who protest police-involved shootings and police brutality by kneeling during the National Anthem before football games. The NFL recently adopted a policy that would fine any players who kneel.
Grimm likened New York Jets owner Chris Johnson’s decision to pay the players’ fines to “slapping all of us veterans in the face.”
“People are there to be entertained, they’re not there for political statements,” Grimm said. People have First Amendment rights, but when players suit up for a game, he said, “they’re not individuals at that moment, they’re representing the NFL. They relinquish their individual rights when they step on the field.”
Donovan agreed.
“There is a First Amendment right, but the Supreme Court said there could be restrictions on time, place and manner," he said. “Let them pay their own fines."
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